- I spend a lot of time with older pastors here in Hobart. I ask them advice. I seek to help them in their ministry. I submit to them often, even if I don't like their point of view.
- I speak warmly, positively and supportively of them, rather than taking time to dwell on their faults.
- I don't like young reactionaries who go into great detail about the flaws of existing institutions and leaders. There is time for healthy, positive discussion. But I switch off if all someone wants to do is talk about the problem with foo.
- The older generation are the good guys and should be treated as such.
- The older generation fought the battles and paved the way for the things we now enjoy. We stand on their shoulders.
- We should be willing to lost battles and face annoyances for the sake of pleasing and honouring the holder generations.
- I stay a formal part of the MTS movement, against some pressure to leave and although MTS National in some ways doesn't give a great deal to the Tassie scene. I stay a formal part because I want to honour it.
- I will always subscribe to Sola Panel, even if it's not always my cup of tea. I seek to involved in the SP community to love and learn from the SP crew.
- I will listen very carefully to the criticisms of the older generation.
- I'm an active and law-abiding member of Presbytery. Not because I have any delusions or ambitions or 'turning around' the Presbytery. But because if I'm going to be a part of a denomination, I want to do so honourably. It is good for me to be in a situation where I have to make compromises with Christians with whom I have so little in common.
- I defer to the older generation, even if it's annoying, inconvenient. There is something wrong with only 'using' the advice and kudos of the older generation. They should inconvenience you at times.
- I'm doing uni ministry at the advice of an older mentor. I didn't really want to do it. The older strongly suggested I think about it. So I did. He was right.
Do other people have hints and tips on how to be godly in their relationship to the older genereation?
19 comments:
Great post. Your comment about making "different mistakes" is well made. The mistakes I make will be different to a 60 year old. But we will both still make mistakes.
great post Mikey. awesome to hear more about you story (though i have heard lots of it from Stu). i reckon hearing honestly about the men behind the mission is a great blessing and humbles critics. Scott Thomas blogged on Driscoll which gives good insight into the man behind Mars Hill... http://acts29network.org/acts-29-blog/how-mark-driscoll-leads/
p.s. my wife and i found your post last night very encouraging.
Hi there.
It is good to read this post of yours, in clearing some things up. However, I must admit I found you post about "MTS-Matthias" stuff, rude, brash and youthfully arrogant.
Mikey, I am younger than you and I found it rude. We are to honour those who go before us, not cause we 'should' but because we are meant to.
30 years ago MTS wasn't around. You are blessed to be part of this movement. And if you don't think you want to be, then maybe it is best to leave ... however, presently you are biting the hand that feeds you. And, if we are being honest here, MTS and training with MTS is a privilege, and not a right. A privilege!
In your anti-MTS and anti-Matthias centiments, of which I, for one think the tired old gong is banging as you are saying it (it's nothing that hasn't been said before by previous 'haters') you are attacking my heritage, as you are attacking many, many Christian leaders heritage. And this heritage is not of just one generation of grumpy old people. This is a heritage of 30 years or more. This is the blood sweat and tears of generations of people trusting in God, working for Him, and truly wanting people to be saved and know God as their Lord and Saviour.
These are Gods people your post is dismissing and in turn, hurting.
It's time to stop. Don't let the devil use you as a mouth piece.
Get back to basics, get back to the Bible. Get back to your true Christian reflection. This I will pray for you and for me, as we work towards God's goals.
I really like your thoughts man.
Thanks Mikey, that is an encouraging approach. It is a difficult time, and I think you are doing well.
Thanks for your comments Mikey. I am not one to normally leave a post, but do read your blog regularly.
I guess I just wanted to thank you for all the work you do do for the MTS movement in Tasmania. Like any 'movement', 'program' there are pros and cons, but in this blog I did not read any anti-MTS or anti-Matthias centiments just a great deal of respect for both and how in your way your are honouring them.
Thanks!
Belinda - Anti-MTS//Matt see:
http://xnreflections.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-do-next-generation-relate-to-older.html
(It's a little further down the page)
I second 'rd's' sentiment.
Praying for you man. And for all involved these sorta discussions where it's so easy to misunderstand each other.
Great post.
Though I find it a little scary/disturbing/sad that you describe Presbytery as "Christians with whom I have so little in common."
Radagast - little in common culturally, style of ministry, personality type...
I'm very much a fan of MTS (I've done it) and also grew up spiritually on the teaching of Matthias Media and Phillip Jensen. He's been here to Tassie a number of times and I've greatly enjoyed appreciated sitting under his teaching. Sat with him at meal times and hung on his every word. Many of my friends have attended Moore College and here in Tas we have often copped it from other local "evangelicals" for siding with "Sydney Evangelicals" espcially "the narrow Mathias lot" too much. I'm proud to have done MTS and I'm proud to have been one of the pioneers in bringing it to Tas. I proud to have been part of a movement that owes much to Sydney.
Having said all that there is a time to listen and to critique.
RD your comments show little willingness to listen or even take the time to read carefully or accept critique graciously. It's precisely this defensive attitude that is the problem with a few (but not all) Sydney Evangelicals.
Mikey, I figured that's what you meant.
But let me throw five more serious comments into this group discussion:
1. It has been said that there are two kinds of fool. The first says, "This is old and therefore it is good." And the second says, "This is new and therefore it is better." Both are dangerous traps. Variety within the Church (1 Corinthians 12) helps the Church as a whole to avoid the traps that a lone individual might fall into.
2. But I'm not calling anyone a fool, of course. Indeed, anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell (Matthew 5:22).
3. More than that, loving our brothers and sisters requires, among other things, putting ourselves in their shoes and doing our best to see things from their point of view (which isn't always easy).
4. There is a special need to use respectful language with those that are older (1 Timothy 5:1), not least because the informal language of the young often hurts them.
5. There is also a requirement to honour our duly appointed church leaders, including those leaders that are young in years (1 Timothy 4:12). I imagine that includes Mikey.
In friendly tone ...
I realise I may be very slow of mind but I still can't work out 'what' the criticism/s are?
I am not worried that there are criticisms (fair or unfair) but I am concerned that it is unclear 'what' they are (and therefore difficult to evaluate - fair/unfair). Are they theological? Are they issues of personal preference? Are they differences of practice?......
I understand the WHO but I can't quite work out the WHAT!
thanks Di
Thanks very much everyone, especially Radagast for rewording the call for respect and humility.
I'm glad that this discussion hasn't become more polarised, but rather has grown more warm.
Thanks for your comments, criticisms, clarifications. May the discussion continue.
Personally, I reckon it's very important to make sure you keep preaching to yourself that the majority of older people in your church are Christians who love Jesus and are operating out of those motives, not out of a desire to make your life difficult.
Working at a church as a Youth Minister where the large majority of the church is 50+ it is up to me to be the one who communicates to them that I'm on about the same things as they are and to help them feel at ease about things I do to bring the gospel to today's teenagers, even if I seem crazy to them.
Example of this, I'm about to go speak at the ladies guild this arvo. It's way easier for both older and younger generations to feel uneasy about each other if they never relate!
Hi all,
This is, I think, my first post here - though I have been lurking for a while... actually I may have chimed in with a name suggestion for the new planting movement.
I think I need to provide some personal context before weighing in on this debate... God willing I will be heading to theological college next year with a goal to finishing up in some form of Presbyterian church ministry at the end of it all. Geographically I'm in Queensland. Anthropologically, I'm the son of a Presbyterian minister in Queensland (with Moore College roots) and the grandson of an Anglican minister in Sydney on the other side of the family...
I probably have all the hallmarks of a church planter - I'm bullish, headstrong, arrogant, entrepreneurial and have a background in communication. Church planting excites me like no other ministry opportunity does.
But. I don't want to jump on the current church planting bandwagon perhaps best epitomised by Driscoll and his fanboys. I love and respect the teaching of Mark Driscoll and I don't seek to trivialise his importance to the body of Christ.
But, I feel that there are many who would sign up to his movements and in doing so thumb their noses at many men who have gone before. I enjoyed reading this post Mikey - because one of my problems with this current movement being driven by enthusiastic young men is that there's a temptation to lump everyone in existing generations in the same boat.
I humbly admire many of those who have been trailblazers - my father and his ilk, and my grandfather and his... and I personally hate the way their efforts are trivialised by the pursuit of the new thing.
Driscoll made broad generalisations when he visited our shores that have been latched onto like a mantra by a generation of bullish, headstrong, and arrogant young men (much like myself). Who want to make a difference and perhaps are looking for a point of difference. I'm not talking about people engaged in actual church planting currently - but those in pews being fired up and looking to lay blame for the current state of staid conservatism that misses the cultural mark.
So in conclusion - Mikey I was greatly encouraged by this post and would like to see more along the same vein coming from those who are championing reform. Reform is needed, necessary and I long and pray for it - but to suggest that our generation are the first of the reformers does a profound disservice to those who came before us (and who are still fighting battles that some in the pews have no idea exist) that will no doubt lay a platform for future ministry.
Glad to hear Nathan. Often, if you want to make a difference over the long-term and really adorn your ministry with gospel beauty, you gotta make like Weird Al and Just Eat It. Losing battles in the short term out of humility makes great gains in the long term.
Mike,
Thanks for your words. I know it must've been hard when you were doing MTS having to leave before you were able to complete the full time training, and it shows your good character to continue to feel endearingly towards it.
I do hear that the young Tasmanians feel the need to critique their Sydney elders, even though it may be in love. I assure you I am listening. I do hear it. But more than me being defensive, aren't I allowed to critique back? I am not saying this as an attack. Please read my tone as actually asking the question. That is, I actually want to know, can the critique go both ways, or is it only one way for a critique, and the other needs to be defensive? I suppose I wonder why it can't be both ways at this point?
I think Radagast has a good point in no. 3. And I am seeing/hearing a frustration that is bubbling away with a younger generation of Evangelicals. I too am in this boat. And Radagasts point 4 is completely correct. In this way I am rebuked if I way too harsh in my language to you Mikey Lynch.
I too have sat under the teaching of PDJ. I too have hung on his every word. I too have spent many many hours with him. But as a critique, not a defense, many readers will read Mikey's post, this one, or the one about 4 posts ago which mentions Matthias in particular, and will read anti-Phillip Jensen sentiments - whether he (Mikey) meant that particularly or not. In this way, as a critique, maybe the distance from Sydney lends not to your (collective) understanding that it then appears to be an underhanded attack, which may be the reason why Mikey got a number of requests from Sydney-siders to clarify his meaning.
Maybe here is a case for listening to each other. I'm more than happy to continue to chat with you about this. Please feel free to email me personally
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