Al asks the question.
What do you think? My leaning is towards 'No', partly just on gut. It feels wrong. I do feel music is part of the decisively Christian part of our gatherings in a way that washing up isn't. I also share the concerns of one of the people commenting on Al's post, that we want Christian mindset to govern the approach to the music.
Have you heard about how Ghostface Keller has even employed professional non-Christians to do music in his gatherings? What do you think of that?!!
Get non-Christians to play music at church?
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Hi Mikey,
I agree with you - but what do you think about paying people ( Christians) to play music at church?
At first i thought it was weird, like asking people from other churches to start-up your kids ministry or something - but is that such a bad thing?
I don't see there's an issue with it. It depends on your limitations as a local church... you may have lots of volunteers who can... you may lack them.
Why a difference between paying musicians and paying pastors?
Hey mate, I posted this on Al's blog, but I thought I would put it here too:
Would you encourage non-Christians to sing in the church?
Singing is an act of praise, and if you can't affirm the word's you're singing maybe you shouldn't sing them? If not, then you definitely shouldn't have non-Christians helping out with music.
On the other hand, discouraging non-Christians from singing can exclude them from a part of the meeting that they could otherwise get into and interact with biblical doctrine, especially if they like singing.
One other thing, perhaps the choice to let non-Christians participate may vary with the size of the church. While it might be right out of order in the intimacy of our small church (around 50-100 there each week), the more professional culture of a larger church (>1000) might make it okay, or even necessary...?
It does just feel a bit wrong. Before I was a christian I struggled to sing the songs. I kind of mumbled or mouthed along because I didn't want to stand out.
@Chris - I'd never encourage the non-Xn to sing. Like Bron, I felt it was very hypocritical to sing when I was a nonXn visitor @ church.
The intimacy of smaller church might be a fair point. Hmm...
G'day Mikey.
How restrictive would you be in deciding who may play?
Would you use folk who are regular attenders at your church and who seem to be supportive of its aims, though they have not professed faith, as far as you know?
Would you use folk who have grown up in this church, have not been confirmed or baptised as believers, but who do not seem to be opposed to Christian teaching? Maybe they seem to be growing into Christian faith?
Would performers need to be church members?
I note that some Christians seem to believe that people who grow up in the church are Christians anyway, whereas others believe that we are all by nature children of wrath and that God's elect need to respond to the gospel. Yes, it is the Holy Spirit who opens our hearts, but we are headed in the same direction as everyone else until we respond to the Spirit's prompting. We aren't automatically saved because we are church attenders, or because we've been christened, or have Christian parents. It is certain that the elect will be saved, but it is essential that they respond to the gospel and exercise faith in Christ.
So... how restrictive are you going to be on who plays? Are your rules for the drummer different from those for the song leader?
1. regular attenders...who seem to be supportive of its aims, though they have not professed faith...?
No.
2. grown up in this church, have not been confirmed or baptised as believers... maybe they seem to be growing into Christian faith?
At the point where faith seems evident - whether in church kid or outsider, I would be open to them helping out.
3. Would performers need to be church members?
No. Although I think generally it's a good idea. Yucky in most situations to imagine someone being a member in one church but playing regularly in another...
4. Are your rules for the drummer different from those for the song leader?
Slightly, yeah... whoever is leading the group and the church in the singing is taking on a leadership role in the church.
@Dave. You also wrote:
"I note that some Christians seem to believe that people who grow up in the church are Christians anyway, whereas others believe that we are all by nature children of wrath and that God's elect need to respond to the gospel."
I'm not sure if you've accurately understand the real difference of views here. Surely there are situations where what you describe is the functional distortion...
The 'already Christians' view does not presume salvation necessarily. But it does see that those raised in the church are _in some special sense_ part of the church community.
I think this is a separate category to consider, yes.
Interesting question!
When I was at college in London (studying opera) many of my colleagues (non-Christians) had 'church gigs' where they would get paid to sing a sunday service, presumably in high church services. I never understood it - having always been a part of congregations in Australia that provided it's own volunteers to lead singing. And they couldn't understand why I wouldn't want a church gig - and why I sang at my own church for free! Having said that, our church, while in general having the service music from members of the congregation (and being a central london church, had a number of professionals and students in the congregation anyway) had an orchestra that did concerts and tours and the occasional service. A number of the members of the orchestra were not necessarily christians, but the orchestra was run as a christian orchestra with devotionals etc. on the tour..
So I can see both sides to it.
I wonder if musicians providing music to worship to is any different from a 'secular' design firm designing a newsletter, or indeed, an architect designing a building to worship in?
I meant to point out that the singers in the concerts and services are always Christians..
Thanks for sharing your interesting and relevant experiences, Findo.
What is the difference between a brochure design and accompanying the music? In my mind, the music seems more closely connected to participation in the act, I suppose partly because it is live.
But it's a hunch here, not an absolute. And in some ways it seems more acute with contemporary music than with classical music... now that's interesting, isn't it?
Yes that's a good point - many of us wouldn't have a problem with non-christians singing Handel's Messiah (and us still having a rewarding spiritual experience in hearing it) but would have an issue with a non-christian singing 'here I am to worship'...
I think designing a church facilitates worship just as much as an orchestral musician.
I know this is a tangent, but...
@mikey "But it's a hunch here, not an absolute. And in some ways it seems more acute with contemporary music than with classical music... now that's interesting, isn't it?"
I wonder how we would have reacted if that was 'our' contemporary music?
Having said that, I remember hearing the full Handel's Messiah sung at Launceston whilst on my honeymoon. (A while back.) It made the hairs on the back of made neck stand up, realising the number of Christians in the choir belting it out.
Greg B
@Greg B - I'm pretty sure you can dray a distinction between folk/popular music of any century and more formal, classical music...
It irks me when non-Christians say that yo ucan take or leave the Christian content of Messiah, for example, and still enjoy it.
I like what J S Bach said:
The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul. If heed is not paid to this, it is not true music but a diabolical bawling and twanging.
And I wonder if the musicians who mock the Christian content of the B Minor Mass, for example, realise that they are singing judgment on themselves when they ignore the glorious expression of the gospel?
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